HARRY POTTER IV
Round 2

July 2000

Mary Vass

I may have missed some of these issues in the HP discussion, since I've been skipping over most of the spoiler messages the last few days, but went back and read a few after I finished HP on my lunch hour yesterday. I've been lurking on this list for several months, but couldn't resist throwing in my 2 cents worth on a book so many of us are sharing and enjoying.

I found many of the comments on the listserv on slavery very interesting. I would agree the dialect is somewhat annoying (although as someone else pointed out very similar in type to that of Golum in the Lord of the Rings trilogy and it got annoying there as well), but I found Rowling's portrayal of adolescents slowly awakening to injustice in their society very interesting. Certainly, few 19th century children raised in a society in which slavery was accepted as the norm would have seen it as unjust. I'm very sure some future society will find some of our societal assumptions as horrifying as we find some of those from our past. I can imagine some future generation looking at us and saying "they actually ate animal flesh, how disgusting and immoral, how could anyone DO that and not realize how wrong it is". But I'm also wary of trying to make the situation of house elves an exact parallel with slavery in our American past. As has been pointed out, Rowling is British and has a different cultural history and set of assumptions than Americans. Her magical world certainly has parallels with reality, but let's not carry it too far. I can see future articles: Is the dread and fear of Lupin, infected with werewolfism, a parallel to the fear with which our society regards those infected with HIV???

I'll have to admit that I occasionally see myself as a mom in the position of house elf. I frequently joke with my daughters about the laundry fairy: dump the dirty clothes in a hamper and expect them to come out magically clean, with all the work being done by the laundry fairy. Of course, my status is self imposed and has been changed dramatically by teaching my kids how to run the washer! I expect we may see some developments of that type in future HP books. I thought Hermoine's championing of the elves' cause was indicative of a bright, original mind at work. I suspect in later books Harry will begin to share in Hermoine's quest and that it will become the quest of the elves themselves. One element of good fiction is character growth: and if we had a perfect magical society and all the good characters always made the right and perfect decisions there wouldn't be a lot of room for growth.

Haven't seen anything much on the Rita Skeeter story line, and I loved that. What a clever comment on our current media obsession with celebrity gossip and the twisting of facts to juice up the story! Rowling has certainly been the victim of that herself, but I took that story line to be more of a general critique of the media than anything personal. This would be fun to use in teaching the novel (if anyone ever has the nerve to teach a book this long) : part of my background is teaching English, and I loved teaching critical analysis of advertising and the media. Wouldn't the difference between reality, Hogwarts style, and the newspaper stories be fun to use with middle school children---right on their level and very funny!

Now we can all decide which media figure we'd turn into a bug! The entire staff of the National Enquirer as a swarm of flies? Jerry Springer as a cockroach? How about Rikki Lake? Geraldo Rivera? The possibilities are endless.

All in all, a delightful read. I had tears in my eyes twice during the last chapters, and that's rare. We can debate whether or not this is great literature for years, but only time will tell. Books that are wildly popular in one generation may be completely obscure in the next, or like Charles Dickens and Shakespeare, the popular may endure for centuries. And certainly popularity makes backlash inevitable: what fun to point out that the emperor has no clothes!

Teri S. Lesesne

"Books that are wildly popular in one generation may be completely obscure in the next, or like Charles Dickens and Shakespeare, the popular may endure for centuries. And certainly popularity makes backlash inevitable: what fun to point out that the emperor has no clothes!"

Wait, let's not make this the definition of literature. Dickens and Shakespeare owe at least some of their classic status to the fact that they have been "canonized". Remove them from the required reading of millions of students and, then, let's see how "popular" they remain. I would also argue that, though, a book may be obscure, it may still be literature. Much of our field of juvenile literature is "obscure" to the general public, true?

That said, I loved HP IV. I had a phone message the other day from a friend in Ohio who was looking for someone else she knew had read the book so she could talk about it. We satisfied my long distance carrier by our lengthy conversation, I am sure.

Just my 2 cents for Tuesday,

John Butcher

I enjoyed your comments, Mary, and I too have been wondering how the slavery take would play out if Rowling were American. It's an issue that is very salient to us. I've been reading HP with my 12-year-old son who has pointed out similarities in the elves' predicament even though he knows little about Muted Group Theory. He surprised me while we read HP III when he pointed out just what you predicted. I remember his observation,"Daddy, it's like Lupin has AIDS." Careful! Kids are very perceptive! As a humorous aside, he is really annoyed at the real pronunciation of "Hermoine." I did not know when reading aloud HPI what I know now and pronounced it as French, something akin to "air muahn." He seriously and absolutely resists "hair me own ee." Rather funny I think. I explained that it's the way the author intended it, but he countered with, "But I'M the one who is reading it!" Evidence for reader stance / response / resistance ??? I am enjoying it all very much.

Kathy Adin

I am enjoying the HP 4 discussion. I compared the speech patterns of the House Elves to Gollum's in The Lord of the Rings, thinking that Rowling was giving the character an uneducated, distinctive speech pattern, a similarity between the characters. I think the concerns about dialect reflect our national guilt about our history more than literary criticism. There are many and excellent examples of dialect use: in recent children's literature, Jerry Pinkney and Virginia Hamilton come to mind as authors who use dialect in children's books to further the character or plot development, for its own unique rhythm and humor. Tolkien, Alexander, and other authors have used this device.

I've been considering Hermione, a character whose strength is emerging. She tells Harry that he is suspecting Snape wrongly, citing Dumbledore's trust for him. She seems to be the only character with foresight among Harry's friends, and is generally correct in her analyses. I bet she will be continuing her House-Elf concerns, and they will prove valuable allies. I'm envisioning a war, classic light vs. dark, with Voldemort's minions arrayed against an army of young wizards and witches, Dumbledore and the Hogwarts profs, Giants, House Elves and Hagrid leading those back-firing Skrets. Should be fun --can we stand the wait, and the inevitable hype along the way?

Monica R. Edinger

It occurred to me that some of the stuff that seems superfluous in book IV may turn out to be very significant in subsequent books. After reading HP III last summer I was motivated to reread the first two and found many small significant details that I'd overlooked. Notably, the World Cup sequence. While, as Phil noted, some plot details are established during these chapters, I currently feel they could have been provided more expeditiously. However, it may turn out with the next book that there was much more than now meets the eye. I think that may be well the case of other loose or unsettling elements of book IV. House elves, for example. Rowling is very shrewd and clever in pulling the rug out from under her readers (e.g Moody) that I trust that much of what seems unclear now will be resolved at some point. Similarly, I agree with others about Mrs. Wesley importance.

I do want to point out that my comments are very much based on my own interactions with the text (that reader response theory I was struggling with vis a vis historical fiction.) My own experience obviously causes me to find certain things more bothersome than others do. Say, Mrs. Wesley or the house elves (although I've yet to hear much defending of them yet.)

One more thing. What did you all think of the opening? Was that her effort to respond to critics who have complained of her always starting at the Dursleys or something else?

Sako Ikegami

House elves I'm sure others have noticed that book four has strong connections with book two. In the last chapter of "Chamber", Malfoy backs away in fear once Dobby has been freed. Apparently, these elves have more power than wizards, or at least some power to be feared. So it is likely that some form of a coup d'etat is in store.

Still, Winky's speech is disturbing. What came immediately to mind was Burnett's "Little Lord Fauntleroy" where supposed New Yorkers speak Cockney.

Mrs. Weasley

I actually like Mrs. Weasley and the way she's portrayed. An Englishwoman who is a contemporary of Rowling's, mentioned that this series is written from the perspective of what England was like when they were children. In which case, it makes perfect sense for the mother of the family to be wearing an apron and sweating in the kitchen rather than lugging around a briefcase in running shoes.

I also think that if Rowling is writing from the perspective of a child, well, let's face it, how many kids *really* enjoy their mothers working? I'm sure as they grow older they can see *why* we need to work and learn to appreciate the fact that it is necessary for our psychological well-being and fulfillment as individuals. But I really believe that from a self-centered perspective, they'd sometimes prefer stereotypic mothers from the sixties (grimace).

Additionally, if we expect Harry to grow up into a psychologically stable adult, he's going to have to get this type of maternal nurturing somewhere. It seems more and more likely that Mrs. Weasely has been relegated this task.

Harry turning American?

Maybe it's just me, but this last book left me with an impression that Rowling was "going American". Anyone else notice this? Jokes and some of the dialog, the portrayal of the Ball scene, other things that I can't quite put my finger on.

Reading Tea Leaves and Stereotypes

Others have mentioned that it seems likely an all-out battle involving various magical species (a la Tolkien, Lewis, etc.) is in store for book seven. If that's all, however, I'd be very much surprised. Rowling has shown too much inventiveness and originality to settle for a simple rehash of historic fantastic glory.

So...my tea leaves tell me that we're likely to see a situation which requires the creation of a new philosopher's stone. Which means there'll be a meeting of opposites. Good and evil, wizard and muggle, etc. etc. will join forces for its creation. And what easier way to find opposites than to create stereotypes in advance so that we can all recognize exactly what these people stand for.

Rowling majored in the Classics and it shows. Probably far more than most high-brow critics give her credit for. I really believe there's much more to this series than is readily apparent. Hopefully they'll finally recognize it in book seven and give her that Carnegie award.

Monica Edinger

Regarding the House Elves.

More and more I think Rowling is trying to set up a situation in HPIV that will become more complex in subsequent books. At least, I hope so. The better interviews suggest someone with a history of concern about issues of race and class. So I certainly don't think she is advocating slavery (as that LA Times reviewer clumsily suggested.) However, I do wonder if she is going somewhat the way Lynn Reid Banks went with The Key to the Indian. That "well-meaning" path of rectification that Banks and others have taken in which they end up stumbling along the way. In Key to the Indian Banks attempted to redress the criticisms leveled at her about her earlier Indian books --- with unfortunate results. (Those who weren't around, check the archives for the thread along with Banks' response; I believe it was in 98.) Rowling too seems to be trying to set up a situation where race/oppression/slavery are going to be considered, but has used problematic imagery to do so. We in the US see it as the worst of the good darky images while I, like Janet, wonder how it is received in the UK. Is Rowling, as someone else here suggested, using some sort of stereotypical Anglo-Indian dialect or some other stereotypical imagery intentionally that would resonate more in the UK than the US? Are there other aspects of the house elves that are more specific to racist/class issues in the UK that wouldn't be something we in the US would recognize? That we might, in fact, misunderstand?

I have a teacher friend in the UK who was very active in anti-racist educational initiatives in the 80s. (Who spent some time as did Rowling on the dole as a single parent which is very different from welfare mothers in the US.) My impression of that time was that issues of race in the UK were far behind the US. I recollect some very brutal police behavior, incredibly racist attitudes by teachers, and more. I hope now there is more awareness. However, I wonder if Rowling's efforts with the house elves et al are efforts of someone in a culture still behind the US in terms of racial self-awareness. This isn't to say we in the US are in good shape. The New York Times has just completed a superb series on how we are and aren't. However, I think we may be further along a continuum of awareness perhaps than the UK public. Our history is different too. So I think Janet's question to our UK members is a good one. We in the US are responding to the house elves with our history. I'd also like to know more about UK response. Rowling shouldn't get into the trouble Banks' got in because she hasn't appropriated explicitly anyone else's culture, but she is doing something that makes many of us in the US uncomfortable and I'd like to know more about how she may be making a statement that is more UK-specific as regards issues of racism.

And, finally, I sure hope nothing above was presented in a way that offends and gets us off topic!

Linda Goettina

Hi All, I finished the book yesterday so now get to jump into this discussion. When Dobby first came on the scene I thought that Rowling had stolen his looks and speech from Yoda in Star Wars and it made me groan. He clearly evolved beyond Yoda but I think those are still his roots.

As for SPEW and Herminone's activism. I thought Rowling was right on target, as usual with her developmental steps. This is the dawning of a social conscious for many young people and it emerges in all the awkward ways that Herminone shows. She is a typical 14 year old activist.

Since Rowling does little that is superfluous and all seems to lead to greater plot and character developments I too hope this becomes a richer and more explicated vein.

Gina Boldman

I've avoided most HP posts as I just finished the book two days ago, so I apologize if someone else has already mentioned this, but the House Elves sounded a lot like brownies to me--little naked hairy things who went from town to town, helping people with carpentry or farming or whatever they needed help with, because they liked to do it and were good, hard workers.

Their only demands were a warm place to sleep and a cup of cream in the morning. They'd stay indefinitely until you insulted them one of two ways--left them clothes to wear or tried to pay them for their work. Once insulted, they left and never came back. At least, this is what I remember from my folklore class a few years ago--I could probably dig up the notes, but I bet someone else could give more accurate information. The brownie myth originated in Europe, but I don't remember where.

Anyway, I wonder if Rowling thought of brownies at all, since they were subservient with few needs, loved to work hard, and didn't wear clothes...I don't remember anything about brownies' language, though--again, maybe someone else does. I, too, felt uncomfortable with the house-elves' dialect--and the scene where Winky is covered in soot from sitting in front of the fireplace for days and days. Can't get much more blatant than that.

Back to lurkdom.

Pauline Herr

Regarding the issue of house-elves...my first thought (as was my daughter's) was that the character of Dobby reminded me of Gurgi from Alexander's series. The dialect does not remind me of Uncle Remus at all–more like Cookie Monster or a five-year old (maybe Junie B. Jones!). This stands to reason, as the house-elves spend so much time in servitude, they don't have time for a formal education. Even in a suppressed society, some member(s) needs to realize there is a problem (Dobby) and through discussion and example, try to change the traditional way of thinking. (Dobby, again!) Winky, especially, shows us that it is not easy and may take time (certainly more than 700 pages!). Since we're on summer break, I haven't had an opportunity to talk with any of my student readers, but I will be interested in their reaction. I hope they will be in Hermione's corner and rooting for Dobby to succeed. ,Obviously, there is a confrontation between good and evil brewing, where the various magical creatures will need to band together, as Dumbledore predicts. I have a feeling the house-elves will prove invaluable. (What a lesson that would pack!) It will be interesting to find out just what kind of power they have ( it must be a dilly for Mr. Malfoy to show fear!),I must add that sometimes, just sometimes, we need to stand back and enjoy the story for what it is–a terrific and intriguing story! Kids do that!!

Last Updated: July 19, 2000