Musings on Mother Goose/Nursery Rhymes

Kathy Aiau
18 Jan 1997

Why are Nursery Rhymes and Mother Goose dying out? I just received Rosemary Wells and Iona Opie's, "My Very First Mother Goose.", and it is a fine edition to a library collections. I try to incorporate rhymes in story times, but children don't know them like they did in my generation. How important are the rhymes to reading and language developement? Do other languages have the equalivent? Another favorite edition of Mother Goose is illustrated by Tommie DePaola.

Jane did you do a collection of Mother Goose Rhymes?

18 Jan 97
Mary Ann Capan

Rosemary Wells' quote on the jacket flap is quite significant. "We live in a time when our language is shrinking. The rhymes of Mother Gose represent our language at its most innocent, playful, and profound. And now they are in danger of disappearing completely. Rhymes that have been repeaed and refined for hundreds of years are no longer being taught to children. . ."

Each semester in my children's literature courses, I begin the poetry and rhyme unit with the following activity. I have a set of index cards, with each card containing the opening line of a mother goose rhyme. I shuffle the cards and pass them out. Each student is asked to read the line they have and then the class joins in, reciting the rest of the rhyme. It is truly sad when there are only two or three students and myself reciting the rhyme, or when my voice is the only one heard. We then talk about this phenomenon and its implications for the future in terms of children, literature and reading aloud to preschoolers. We also discuss the variations found in some of the lines from collection to collection.

Janet Zarem
18 Jan 1997

I have heard that parents and nursery and kindergarten teachers are reluctant to teach Mother Goose rhymes because of the violence and sexism in many of them. At least that's what one study (sorry, no attribution) apparently surfaced. The Opie/Wells Mother Goose has included rhymes which are not "offensive" in this way: there are no cradles falling, no mice missing their tails, and no pumpkin-eaters wives incarcerated in large squash. Interestingly enough, the only criticism I have read of the book is the illustration involving the rabbits dressed as Native American, which is seen by some as culturally insensitive (or, at any rate, unnecessary to the illustration).

19 Jan 1997
Richard Macgillivray

It strikes me that a child's early experience(s) with nursery rhymes is a powerfully determining factor in whatever later response there may be (or not be) to a line or two of what should be a familiar rhyme. If a child has been read to, played with ("This little piggy went to market..."), and otherwise exposed to the world of Mother Goose, s/he will surely "have" that rhyme (those rhymes) for life. If no one bothers and sees the tv as babysitter, entertainment centre, what-have-you, then it will come as no surprise that that kid doesn't know (or maybe care) what comes after the first line. My father-in-law is one of the least "literary" people I've ever met, and yet he can recite rhyme after rhyme after rhyme. I'm convinced that the early years and early exposure are the keys.

20 JAN 97
Sanjay Sircar

| "Why are Nursery Rhymes and Mother Goose dying out?"

Cultural illiteracy, "there are more important and relevant' things to know about", "they are so oldfashioned" that sort of attitude --- I would imagine.

"I try to incorporate rhymes in story times, but children don't know them like they did in my generation."

Sad. The tides of a new Dark Ages are upon us, worldwide (the sort of thing Gilbert Highet and co forecast in the 1940s, and they may have meant that after Hitler, this would happen, and it has...)

"How important are the rhymes to reading and language developement?" "Do other languages have the equalivent?"

I've translated some.

"Another favorite edition of Mother Goose is illustrated by Tommie DePaola."

You can't do better than the Oxford Book of... (and the other Opie one). The Baring_Goulds' The Annotated MG is good for an ordinarty child/classroom.

Judy "A." Teaford
19 Jan 97

When I was teaching junior high school, I used fairy tales, picture books, etc. in many of my classes for reason ranging from introducing storytelling techniques to developing critical reading and writing skills. What I discovered is that many of my students were not familiar with the stories, had not been read to either at home or in grade school and those who were felt the version they had been read/told was the true version. While it is sad that many of these kids were not read to or told stories as children, the good news is that when I read to them they surrounded me as little children and listened intently, many of them going home and looking for others. Of course I also gave them, at times, assignemts that would ask them to look for more fairy tales, look at more picture books, etc. IT'S NEVER TOO LATE TO INTRODUCE FAIRY TALES AND PICTURE BOOKS TO PEOPLE, REGARDLESS OF AGE. I think the same would hold true for Mother Goose, etc.

20 Jan 1997
Bonita Kale

Well, if it's any comfort, one part-time library assistant has taken to pushing nursery rhyme books since this discussion started, and is going to do more. I think I'll point out to parents that nursery rhymes help the kids learn the rhythms of speech. So many of them want to help their kids in every way possible, but expect everything to have a -use-. And nursery rhymes are so delightfully frivolous.

20 Jan 1997
DEBORAH CHURCHMAN

This is fascinating. I know that the current generation of 20-somethings no longer know any Biblical quotes; hadn't realized that Mother Goose is going as well. Wonder what's replacing it as our basic cultural knowledge? The Cosby Show? Tunes to various sitcoms? The Berenstain Bears? I'm dead serious--wonder if anyone's studied this.

20 Jan 1997
Jane E Kurtz

Disney, Disney, Disney, if my students are any indication. Jane Kurtz

20 Jan 97
Gina Stough

I've been thinking about this and trying to remember what I thought as a kid. My Mother Goose book was well-loved; I don't remember thinking about the violence in some of the rhymes. (I always pictured branches breaking the cradle's and baby's fall--they never made it to the ground but instead were safely sitting on some branches near the bottom of the tree.) Mostly, I thought the rhymes were saying, "this is what happens when you do something bad," or "this is a story about..." They did send the message that "you will probably get punished for your mischievousness" but I didn't feel it was overwhelming or else I wouldn't have read them--they wouldn't have been fun.

Second, I didn't watch nearly as much TV as children today often watch, and I don't remember much violence in what I saw (except for some Looney Tunes, and I never thought that was real). Kids today are so overstimulated by what they watch--how can nursery rhymes compete? I'm single, but I'm already starting a library for my children (or, if that's not to be, my relatives' and friends' children!) because I loved reading, and being read to, as a child. Perhaps if children grew to love books *first*, TV would seem like a cheap imitation of imagination and storytelling (which, IMO, it is in most cases).

20 Jan 1997
Mary Gere Bridger

"This is fascinating. I know that the current generation of 20-somethings no longer know any Biblical quotes; hadn't realized that Mother Goose is going as well. Wonder what's replacing it as our basic cultural knowledge? The Cosby Show? Tunes to various sitcoms? The Berenstain Bears? I'm dead serious--wonder if anyone's studied this."

Such sweeping generalizations. I suppose those 40, 50 and 60-somethings who raised us have some 'splainin' to do. But we reap what we sow.

20 Jan 1997
Deborah Roberts

The generation that's growing up watching Barney will have at least some acquaintance with Mother Goose -- not only the character, who shows up on the program, but some of her rhymes as well; that's one of the nice things about the program, along with the fact that its songs are generally more singable for kids than the songs on Sesame street.

20 Jan 1997
Teresa Wlson

There is little doubt that Mother Goose rhymes do stimulate language development and listening appreciation. They are highly recommended for read-alouds with young children. I say this to Bonita (I believe it was) who mentioned that her patrons often expected books to _do something_ (which could be an interesting thread itself). You are right on in suggesting MG!

When I was teaching middle school, I did notice that many students were unfamiliar with references I would make to Mother Goose, or even some fairy tales. They were, however, frequently familiar with the poetry of Shel Silverstein. Jack Prelutsky was another old favorite with some. I think many of these poems provide some of the rhythm and rhyme of MG. Other poetry collections do as well--_Sing a Song of Popcorn_ comes to mind. I would certainly never suggest these replace MG, but they may serve a similar function in language development (for those who want that sort of purpose) and appreciation.

It seems to me from all the MG on the bookstore shelves that these poems are rather popular right now. I know of many primary teachers who claim to use MG. It would appear that MG is making a bit of a comeback. Yes? No?

21 JAN 97
Sanjay Sircar
Just stray thoughts, very ignorable... Maybe Constance Vidor has some responses?
I wondered, too, are 20somethings in *all* countries and *all* milieux *as* deprived (that is, if people agree that not knowing biblical tags and nursery rhymes constitutes cultural deprivation: after all, they can't be converted into money or jobs)? If so, no doubt (or at least, perhaps) it goes with the firmly established fact that teaching grammar has no beneficial effect on the ease and flow of our writing in our early years (or on doing easy stylistics later, no doubt): all part of the same general outlook. Indeed, as St Paul (was it?) sayeth, sometimes we sow the wind and reap the whirlwind. All the fault/responsibility of Dr Spock and the Swinging Sixties...? I remember them well, which proves that I wasn't there. Thank the powers above that I never birthed nor raised no chirrens and that I was in a position to know of Halliwell-Phillips (sp?) very early on.

I was also taught (no doubt by one of the reviledly prescriptivist "right-answer" people, who would have said that there *was* a standard language or standard languages which went with standards of "correctness" in usage --- cf. re verbal decorum, that there are no filthy thoughts and no dirty minds, as has been, if I mistake not, ironically? asserted on this list) --- that a quote was something a plumber gave one, and a quotation something one gracefully used: but there must be *some* authority (like a nonprescriptivist dictionary) that says differently today. Ah, yes, the language, along with everything else (what people "know"), changes, and the Readers' Digest and its impact ("Quotable Quotes": in print, in a journal, therefore a de facto validation of the phrase) is also something to deplore, or at any rate, note. But what would I know...?

20 Jan 1997
Chris Conan

I work at a bookstore and I hadn't thought about it before but MG has not really been a very big seller. Silverstein has pretty much taken over and the only people that really purchase MG are grandmas. Younger parents never seem to ask or care about MG. I'm only 22 but guarantee my kids will be reading and listening to MG.

Sanjay Sircar
21 JAN 97

"Well, if it's any comfort, one part-time library assistant has taken to pushing nursery rhyme books since this discussion started, and is going to do more. I think I'll point out to parents that nursery rhymes help the kids learn the rhythms of speech. So many of them want to help their kids in every way possible, but expect everything to have a -use-. And nursery rhymes are so delightfully frivolous."

Tell 'em frivolity is its own use (minds work better when they are relaxed) --- just as art and scholarship are their own ends, not *for* anything tangible or useful (but don't tell them that). Yrs, Sanjay post if you think interesting, otherwise wastebasket

June Harris
21 Jan 1997

Just as an aside regarding the Mother Goose thread: I have a copy of _The Annotated Mother Goose_, a great reference work for those of you who are teachers, librarians, or in other areas interested in the backgrounds of the verses. (Actually, I lied; I have two copies, for reasons I do not recall.) The work is edited by William S. and Ceil Baring-Gould, and the hardcover copy is dated 1958, I think. (It's in Roman numerals, and I'm a little shaky on my translation there.) The paperback copy is dated 1967. I find this book fascinating because the annotations refer to the origins of some of the verses, they explain words and usages, and other interesting bits of info. The book contains illustrations by Walter Crane, Randolph Caldecott, Kate Greenaway, Arthur Rackham, Maxfield Parrish, and is, to my mind, a wonderful work. I'm reasonably sure this work is out of print now, but you might check used bookstores if you're interested. (BTW, there's a wonderful bookstore in San Diego that specializes in used and out of print children's books. I'll try to dig up the name and number for anyone who is interested.) June Harris

21 Jan 1997
Jane E Kurtz

I thought of this discussion this morning when I introduced a book (DAKOTA: A SPIRITUAL GEOGRAPHY) that opens with a Biblical allusion--Jacob wrestling with the angel. None of my writing students had a clue what Kathleen Norris might be referring to...and this is in conservative and churched North Dakota. I know it's been said before; I guess it's always just a surprise when it happens to me: we really can't make assumptions about a shared literary heritage anymore. Jane Kurtz

22 JAN 97
Sanjay Sircar

| The work is edited by William S. Baring-Gould,//Their grandfather or greatgrandfather(in law) was the man who wrote "Onward Christian Soldiers", and, something very interesting, a book on _Jack the Giant Killer_ as I recall (perhaps wrongly, it was something like that, but my memory is failing), quite a pleasant one to read, and suitable for those children (and their teachers) for whom awards are not the be-all and end-all of all interest. He was the sort of clergyman like Canon J. C. Atkinson or Rev. F E Paget, who contributed so much to C19 writing. We shall not see their like again.

21 Jan 97
Daniel Meyer

Well, I'm twentysomething, and I knew many nursery rhymes when I was growing up. I also know some Biblical quotes, though I learned some of them in religious school and not from society at large. For that matter, I read _Little Black Sambo_ when I was younger--except, I learned the story from book-and-record sets which had been rewritten with titles such as _Little Brave Sambo_. Also, the protagonist was white.

I should hasten to add, though, that my mother was quick to make me aware of the changes in the text. So I didn't grow up in complete cultural ignorance.

22 Jan 1997
Brendon Hill

Hello All!

As a new member to this list, I came in right in the middle of the discussion of Mother Goose rhymes and fairy tales and how the usage of these is dying out in our society. I am currently writing a paper on this very subject for a children's literature class I'm taking, and I was wondering if people would be willing to send me any postings they may still have on this topic. What I have read has been extremely interesting and helpful.

Well, now that this request has brought me out of lurker status, I might as well introduce myself. I am a first year student in the Master of Library Science program at the University of Rhode Island. I plan on becoming a children's librarian at a public library. My favorite children's author is Madeleine L'Engle, and I also love reading Arthurian fiction. I'm also an independent computer consultant. (If anyone is interested, I do freelance web page design).

On the Mother Goose topic, if anyone is interested in digging deeper, a good book on the importance of fairy tales, I would recommend "The Uses of Enchantment" by Bruno Bettelheim. It's going to be one of the key works for my assignment.

I would be interested in continuing to discuss this topic off-list if anyone else is interested.

23 Jan 1997
Nick clark

As Chairman Yogi once said, "This may be deja vu all over again," but I thought I would like to mention Dr. Seuss as a latter day Mother goose. I think I recounted the episode that took place during the children's book show that was here at the chrysler last summer (yes, I am shamelessly plugging it again, because it opens at the Delaware Art Museum in wilmington on the 7th of February until the 6th of april) when, at one of our celebrity readings, the reader commenced with "Green Eggs and Ham," and by the second page, there were nearly 110 children (mostly African-American) chanting the text. It was one of the most magical moments of the summer and a tribute to the influence and good works of Dr. Seuss. Like MG, silly seems to carry the day. We were equally intrigued by the fact that many young visitors were not overly familiar with the sample of MG images we included in the exhibit -- Old Mother Hubbard; Peter, Peter; Humpty Dumpty -- to name but a few. Not scientific or conclusive, but interesting, nevertheless.

23 Jan 1997
Nicole Marie Conradt

"This is fascinating. I know that the current generation of 20-somethings no longer know any Biblical quotes.. (snip -- fcl)."

Wow! As a "20 something", I was not aware of the fact that because I was not familiar with the Bible and Mother Goose, I was lacking 'basic cultural knowledge.' I'd better scrap all those tapes of Cosby and get reading that Bible!!

3 Feb 1997
kat

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. We have been reciting, memorizing, and passing down these nursery rhymes for generations. It can't be half as violent as the "boob tube"!!!! You can't even walk down the street without being a witness to some type of violence (unless you live in an imaginary, perfect world, and we know that is not happening). The point is children enjoy these rhymes, and the books they are published in. If a child is enjoying reading why are we complaining? The knowledge a child retains is achieved by reading (among other things), but if we start early maybe, just maybe that child will become an accomplished reader of other subjects!!!!